I know this is a total shot in the dark, but I figure I'd put it out there. I cannot get my DS under control. He will do what he wants, because he wants to, regardless of the consequences. I started noticing this around 15 mos, he's now 5 and having severe difficulties in school. NO type of punishment or reward works. We have cancelled vacations, taken away all his toys, done reward charts, time outs, spankings, you name it - we've tried them all, he simply doesn't care. If he wants to do something - and he KNOWS it's wrong to do it - he will do it, because the reward of doing it will outweigh any form of punishment for him. He simply has no currency. And he will tell you this - "why did you do it? Don't you know that was wrong?" and he will answer "Yes, it's wrong, but I wanted to."
He's an extremely bright child, 2 grade levels above on math and reading, but has been diagnosed at about 30% behind socially.
Do not suggest that he needs to see a professional. We have done that - several times. All are baffled by him. What he is NOT:
He is NOT ADD/ADHD. He has been tested several times and does not fit the criteria.
He is NOT austistic or on the ASD spectrum. He is too verbally advanced.
He is not ODD, bipolar, or OCD.
He was on 5 mg of Adderall and that seemed to work for about a year. This past week, however - he was horrid. The medicine is definitely not working. We have an appt on Tuesday with his psychiatrist to discuss other options (the Adderall was a guess on her part really, since she's never seen a child like him), but I wanted to reach out to other moms first to see if ANYONE out there has a kid like this that has been officially diagnosed and has found a treatment that works. All his other doctors have basically given up on us, and I'm at my wit's end.
Thank you all so much for the responses! Unfortunately, we've already tried the books metioned (Love & Logic, 123 Magic, Skillstreaming) with no success. There's something wired differently in his head that words/parenting simply cannot overcome.
I hadn't considered the dye issue much, since we eat healthy, but I checked around anyway - sure enough, Red40 in his daily vitamin! As of Sunday, he is totally dye free now. I'm really thinking there's a link to his diet, tho - we will have identical days except for food, and one day is perfect and the next a nightmare. I have begun keeping a food journal of what he eats and the ingredients so we might be able to pinpoint what's causing his issues.
Have you asked about Aspergers? I know you say he does not fall under ASD due to being verbally advanced, but many who are verbally advanced fall under Aspergers. It is a form of autism-very high functioning, very verbal(for the most part); what they tend to have a deficit in is social skills.
Good luck, hope you get an answer soon!
Try a time with Concerta it works better than Adderall. Try a high protein diet,stay away from brown chocolate, and keep sugar,white things to a minimum. The above has made my child a different person. I can tell when any time he gets too much of something or is low on protein.
I have seen more than one mom post regarding ODD, which was on the table for my now 3 year old for a while before they changed it to PDD-NOS...it is definitely something to look into.
I work in an elementary school with multi handicapped children. If you haven't already, I'd request an evaluation through the special education department of the school district. This way, he can be observed by several different professionals who might give you some insight. Hopefully they have seen similar symptoms. If you are able to, I strongly suggest observing him in the classroom setting. I think you will gain valuable insights.
Your son is obviously very intelligent. I suspect there is a connection between his low social score and his impulsiveness. My gut says he's a high functioning Aspergers. I have a relative who is 40 and recently diagnosed with Aspergers. She can talk your ear off as long as its what she wants to talk about. Social situations (like kindergarten) make Aspies uncomfortable because they don't understand social clues, mannerisms, etc. That discomfort makes them act out inappropriately. They know what they did was wrong on a logical level but they don't understand the emotional part. For example, they take a toy from another child and the child cries. They understand taking the toy was wrong but they don't understand it hurt the other child's feelings. Simply put, they lack empathy.
Like the other post, I applaud you for everything you have done trying to get help for your son. He is blessed to have you.
Hi there,
I am so sorry to hear that things are so tough for you guys.
I know you have tried lots of things and do not want to see another professional so I will let you know up front that I am an occupational therapist, a parent educator and an energetic healer (I was an OT before I became a parent, but studied all of the rest of it because I had a challenging child and MY PREVIOUS TRAINING MADE NO DIFFERENCE!). I still practice all of those different modalities because I find with particularly challenging kids, you need a multi-faceted approach.
Before I would give you advice, I would have lots of questions. Does he seem to have any sensory issues:
http://www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/sensory-proces...
Does he seem to be driven by a need for power and control....to be the "boss of himself".
http://incaf.com/articles/Avoiding_Power_Struggles.pdf
(I have another couple of articles on Power Struggle but are in word so I would need to email them to you: ____@____.com)
Does he seem to have poor impulse control...he thinks of it and does it with no regard for the consequences? Does he seem to be almost excited by negative attention? If either of these are going on here are some resources:
http://difficultchild.com/
http://www.ccps.info/books/index.html
http://www.ccps.info/books/excerpt.html
http://www.elainedavies.com/EFTarticle.html
http://www.eftuniverse.com/index.php?option=com_content&a...
I hope at least one of these resources is helpful. Again, I have more, but do not want to overwhelm you.
Feel free to contact me if you would like more info.
Blessings,
K.
K. Cavins, OTR, CPE, EFT-Cert
From the Heart Family Healing
I don't have a clue how to answer your question; but I just wanted to tell you it sounds like you're doing everything you can for your son, and that makes you a success as his mother! Hang in there, and keep advocating for him... there MUST be an answer out there SOMEWHERE!
Oh my goodness, this sounds like my son! He has had terrible impulse control problems since he was 2. He is 6 now. After years of embarrassment and being judged by others as being a crappy disciplinarian, his teacher finally told me that he is very difficult to punish because he doesn't care about any consequence!! Finally, someone who didn't think I was the worst parent in the world. She "got it." It's heart breaking to me, really. Even last night we had company over and it was very obvious that his energy was annoying one of our house guests. ...and he was being a great and sweet kid (at his best and still annoying to others). ugh. Oh, how difficult this is for you. I understand what you are going through! So, here's something to think about. We found out our son has a very low homocysteine level and needs supplementation of certain vitamins. Since he's been treated, this has done wonders for his impulse control problems. He also has some food intollerances; we have removed these foods from his diet. It hasn't been easy but it has helped so much. Sugar affects him negatively. Take sugar out of his diet as best you can. He obviously has a sensitive system. You might consider removing casein as well. The doctor who diagnosed his homocysteine issue and food intollerances is Dr. Kendall Stewart in Austin, TX. You should go see him. They do take insurance. Lastly, even though you want to shake him, be on his side. I know you already know this but try to be more compassionate and understand that he's not trying to make your life hell. His brain works differently than the rest of us and some of these things he can't really help doing. The part of his brain that is supposed to tell him not to do something, because it's wrong, doesn't work the way it is supposed to. His impulses get the best of him. There are so many people out there who don't understand, read this and say, "Yea right." They should consider themselves lucky to have a "typical kid" because they have no idea how much easier they have it (and it's not our parenting). I have tried it all too. I just continue to praise him for the good he does (which works as they say it does) but I still punish when he makes bad decisions. I can't just let him get away with it but it still changes nothing. I only pray that this strong will of his, and unusual interests will serve him well as an adult. Thank you for posting this!! I look forward to researching these links that others have posted for you. I'm always trying to learn more.
It seems to me from what you describe that he is high functioning Aspergers. Perhaps going through a regional center in your town will help with getting him occupational therapy, social skills training and other services to help you. Also, some Aspies have severe sensory overload issues and that causes the reverse affect of wanting to do whatever it is they want to do even more. They have no control over it. Have you looked into sensory processing disorder (SPD). When he says he knows what he does is wrong, is it usually when he is calm and his cognitive part of the brain kicks in? I suggest to have him seen by a speech pathologist who specializes in ASD (apsergers) behavior or a behavorist to really pinpoint what it is. Good luck!
My first thought was that these sound like sociopathic tendencies. I am sorry you are having such a difficult time with your child. It's so hard being a parent.
If you don't feel like your psychiatrist is helping you, find another one or ask if they can refer you to someone who may have an idea of what is going on with him. There are behavioral clinics at all major University medical schools, you might ask if one near you has a clinc that deals with difficult behavioral diagnostics.
Adderal is a stimulant for people who have trouble with attention. If attention was not his issue to begin with, I don't know why it ever helped him. If it did help him, maybe what you need is a full developmental evaluation and a very detailed nueropsychological evaluation to look at exactly how he processes information to see if atteniton is an issue. I would be looking at things like, how does he process language? Yes, I know you do not see any deficits, that does not mean that he may not have some big dips and big highs in his processing skill numbers. Extreem subtest scatter in one area of functioning can cause a child to have behavioral issues. For example, though he is intelegent, if there is a huge difference between his verbal ablity and his non verbal abilty, and they still average out to be above average IQ that person is going to be frustrated wtih many tasks, and though they perform better than most people, they still react to frustration with misbehavior.
This may have nothing to do with his issue, but if you have never looked at the numbers of the subtests for his IQ test (suggest either a WISC or Woodcock Cognative) a Full language evaluation (with evaluation insturments for expressive and recptive langaugage, word retrieval, etc) and so on, then you have not really explored what could be going on here, and you should look for a professional who will order this kind of assessment and then go over it in detail with you to explain what it all could mean.
If he is not in cognative behavioral therapy, get him in right now. It does nto matter what the diagnosis is, therapy is delivered based on behavior. As your psychiatrist for a referal.
I would suggest that you read a book called "The Myth of Layziness" by Dr. Mel Lavine. While it deals with kids who are having trouble in school, it also explains many issues that do not usually get picked up in a cursary psychological evaluation by a psychiatrist alone. "All Kinds of Minds" is another good choice.
I do not mean to sound like a downer, but if all the testing and evaluation do not point to an issue with development, there are individuals with purely psychiatric conditions that are very difficult to treat, in the personalty disorder category, who are very smart, have few deficits, who know right from wrong, but are not capable of applying it to themselves, even with treatment. Keep seeking profesional help, and redouble your efforts to find someone who will be highy accesseable to your son and who is not satisfied to say "I don't know."
M.
.
Oh boy, does this sound familiar! The only difference is that we had an ADD diagnosis. Years ahead in math and music, but socially behind. No punishment or reward worked at all. Nothing. Nada. Family counselor said, "you're doing all the right things, he's not responding appropriately." DUH. What worked was some meds like Ritalin, and adolescence hitting. That made him more aware of social issues and gave us a little leverage (embarrassment). He is a wonderful young man now, just turned 23. He still never met an argument he didn't think he could win, but is a kind, intelligent, thoughtful person.
There are some books out there about Indigo children which were recommended to my daughter about her very bright, strong willed child. Look those up. It seems to me that he fits that description.
Good luck to you! You may have some challenges ahead, but you have a great kid.
I have been there. Know that you an your husband are NOT alone.
Finding a good child psychiatrist is essential. My boys with Aspergers have a combination of medications and it took a while to find just the right doses. For a while there I had the psychiatrist's office phone number on speed dial.
Just to help, we found that listing what were privileges and have our child concentrate on earning them. Watching TV is a privilege, for instance.
At this age, I'm not sure where to suggest you start. Send me a private message if you want to explore more with me.
Good luck,
D.
We have an almost 40 year old son who gave us similar problems as he was getting taller. He is now the father of 3 and hopefully he will learn how to behave properly for their benefit. Prayer and putting him into the capable hands of the LORD is how we've maintained our sanity and peace. He has a patient wife after wearing out one. He is currently out of communication with us since March of this year. I am adding you to our prayer list.
Don't know what your beliefs are, but perhaps he would benefit from reading and learning about what the Bible says? By learning about who God is and how he would like us to behave while on earth, he may be encouraged to do the right thing, sometimes! Of course, no one can do the right thing all the time.
Just off the cuff two things come to mind. Aspergers, maybe? It is worth looking into.
I also second the recommendation for Love and Logic. There is a whole series, but Parenting with Love and Logic would be a good read for you until you can get this figured out.
Best wishes to you.
Drugging him up is not the answer, check out some books on indigo kids.
wow, I am exhausted just reading this. I know this is really hard for you as the mother of this spirited child. I do not really have any advice except for you. Give yourself breaks when you can. Be kind to yourself. A healthy mom is better for this child than anything. Hang in there.
Google Oppositional Defiant Disorder and see if that fits your son. This type of behavior usually runs in families so look at the family tree for clues as well. Make sure you investigate both the maternal and paternal sides of the family. Ask yourself, "did anyone act like this when they were young?" Even if they do not act like it now, it is important to find out if they behaved this way growing up. Find out what happened to that person, in other words, did they grow out of it? develop other issues? learn to deal with it? Take this info to your psychiatrist and that will help get the pieces of the puzzle into place.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
L.
Have you kept a food journal to see if there are any trigger foods? That is the first place I'd look.
Second - parenting help. I was just recently introduced to Love and Logic - I really like the way this guy gives his talks (I've listened to one of his cd's) I believe they have a website and hold parenting classes. He's very fun to listen to, tells relevant/interesting/funny stories and what he says makes sense! It's relevant for all ages too, young to teenagers - actually you could use it on adults - lol.
Hope you get things figured out soon!
M.
P.S. - just read the post regarding red dye. YES! My son can't tolerate red dye #40. We eat very healthy, no processed foods. Whole foods only, veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds, and the kids take fish oil. I'm sure if I wasn't vigilant about their diet that he'd have behaviorial issues too. You really have to read label and be your kids nutritionist these days.
I can tell by your post that you are extremely frustrated. I'm sorry for all this. But, you know sometimes we need to also look at the kid. Obviously, something is off and your mothers intuition is right on. Press......Don't take no for an answer. You are obviously an awesome mom and I just want to tell you that you are on the right track. Don't give up..I know this from experience...be relentless until you find out what is best for your son.
God Bless You,
DH
With my family, food allergies have caused similiar symptoms.
It sounds like you just wrote about my second daughter. I'm sure you have tried, but just in case you haven't. We completely changed her diet. All natural foods now. All homemade. She takes her lunch and snacks even if she visits friends. NO red dye whatsoever. I have to remind everyone. She has grown by leaps and bounds in the past year and a half. If she accidentally has red dye, she becomes what I call a little hateful monster that NOBODY can tolerate. I thought for her first 5 years that she hated me, really. Well, I nursed her. The first year and a half was not too bad. ;)
Good luck. I hope you can figure it out and turn your son around. :)
I don't have any personal experience with this. So I can only offer my thoughts which may not be useful. Are the punishments close to the time of the offense? If it's too far apart it's less effective. Is he able to think of the situation from someone else's perspective? How do you think the teacher feels when you interrupt the classroom? How does your classmate feel when ...? I don't know if you want to ask him questions like - how do you feel if someone did (whatever he did)? Do you think others like it when you do ...? If he can state he knows it's wrong, ask him what he
thinks the punishment should be for ... You may be surprised. Is he able to delay gratification at other times? Can he wait until you get home to eat the ... that you bought at the grocery store? Maybe working on delayed gratification. Otherwise all I have is try other professionals. Hopefully there is one who can help you guys and have just not found him/her yet. Best of luck. Wish I had the magic answer for you. - one last thought, are your punishments consistent? If sometimes he is able to get away with it, sounds reasonable (to him) to give it a try. (We all want what we want)
Have you heard of Sensory Processing Disorder? Check out this website http://www.spdfoundation.net/index.html Occupational Therapy has worked wonders for my son. Good luck with everything.
I have boys and they are very, very active from sunrise until sunset. Some days I am worn out by noon. He sounds like has has a lot of tenacity which will make him a big success in his life whatever he does. Try and find outlets for him like running at the park, gymnastics, riding his bike, etc. Enroll him in fun classes besides school a few days a week so he sees other kids and how they behave socially. Is he in any playgroups with other boys? Maybe nothing is wrong and he just is easily stimulated? What are his school difficulties? Maybe his teacher could help him integrate with other kids in the classroom? Also, keep him off the foods that have red and yellow dye in them. This seems to really stimulate kids and is not good for them. i.e. Kraft Mac N Cheese. Keep up the great work!
Hi S. B,
I'm sorry to hear of your son's struggles. You've gotten some great replies from other moms.
Your intuition tells you something is going on with your son. Realize that he may not at present be able to control his impluses, so strive for loving and consistent parenting while you seek help. Know that your son can pick up on the frustrations of all the adults in his life. Avoid over-reacting to what he does, but give a reasonable consequence. Catch him being good and talk about it. Spend time playing with him and hugging him. I am a facilitator for the Parenting With Love and Logic curriculum and I highly recommend you reading the book.
It sounds like three possibilities have been floated from the moms' replies. They are that diet could be affecting him, that he might have some diagnosis and that he is just acting normally.
YOU are your son's best advocate. Even if he has nothing that requires treatment, you probably want to seek further testing before accepting that. Perhaps the best place to start is with the evaluations like LuckyMom mentions. None of our kids come to us perfect. The possible diagnoses mentioned may sound frightening. Most parents find that things get much better once they have a diagnosis (if there is one) and begin the recommended treatment. While your child is unique, there are experts who can help you figure this out.
A certified nutritionist that specializes in children's behavioral issues can evaluate your son. I encourage you to ask for training and credentials when seeking one. This way you know the advice you get is based on education, scientific testing and proof.
As for your son's behavior being totally baseless, you might reach this conclusion after pursuing the suggestions above. In that case, you might look into classic books and help that focuses on parenting strong-willed children.
Look to the success of the kids of other moms in these posts and know things can get better. Congratulations on loving your son enought to want that.
My thoughts and prayers are with you,
Parent Coach J. B.
I have heard of a book that is called "Before It's Too Late", Author is PHD I believe, if I recall his last name was Samenow or something similar. Book was highly recommended by radio talk show psychologist, Dr Laura, to parents of an out of control tween . Parents had tried everything to help this child and nothing was working. I havent read it, but she highly recommended it to the mother, even went so far to tell her to take husband and son and fly to where is lives and make an appt to see him in add'n to reading the book. Apparently he is an expert child psychologist in this area. I hope this helps.
Like the other posters I'm mainly posting to say you're doing a great job in my opinion. The only thing I thought of that you may already have tried was hitting the nutrition end of it. A good nutritionist should guide you but we've probably all heard the drill: No refined sugar, sodas and supplements of Omegas etc. Again, just posting just incase it helps you or someone else. I have a feeling you're already on top of it. All the best!
Shot in the dark and I saw a few other posts that mentioned it too. My niece was like this and they eliminated red dye from her diet and it did not cure her, but it definetly helped her a lot with some of these same things. Red Dye is in a lot of things though so you have to be super vigilant. If she has any you can certainly tell the difference.
Good luck.
