The fact that I joined here and am actually posting something personal and looking for advice from total strangers says a lot.
I am at my wits end with my husband and his dis-respectful and condescending nature to both me and the kids.
I've read many of the typically suggested books, I've been to a few counseling sessions (he has not), I've become a contortionist LOL, we've set rules which don't get followed.
A little background:
high school sweethearts (off and on till we married at 22)
Married 10+ years
2 children under 10
no religious preference, basically Agnostic after being Christian as children
he does the dishes, laundry, cleans, pool maintenance, general handyman - I'm lucky here.
Husband works out of town. It's not hard for me to be independent when he is gone.
I also work FT, but a 9-5.
Blind trust and respect is not an easy thing for me to give. I am extremely capable and independent. I am analytical and question everything. Husband has made a few decisions during our marriage that have profoundly impacted our lives for the worse for a time. So I naturally tend to question his ideas and desires so that we don't end up in a repeat. I did realize several years ago that in general, I tended to judge him too quickly and that letting him talk before giving my opinion was something I needed to work on. I have made extreme strides to honor him and show him "that respect" that he directly asks for. Now, I rarely interrupt him. In fact, I rarely question him - because while I was "working on it", no matter what angle I tried, no matter what I did or didn't do, I was still getting yelled at over the most trivial of subjects. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't me or my analyzing that was the problem. Even if I ask him a simple clarifying question about the subject at hand, his short ego-fuse burns out, and then several accusations later, he yells and tells me that "I don't trust him", or "I don't respect him". So for the most part, I just let him talk. I stop what I'm doing and l show interest because according to Dr. Laura, "That's what a good wife does. She feeds her husband's need for reassurance." I wish it really worked that way with him. But the reality is he just wants me to agree with his every whim.
Recent example:
He found a property he wants to purchase - a small cabin on 5 acres 19 hours away for about $200K. We've had a goal to purchase some land in that area for less than $50K, and move out there in a few years. He showed me the listing and explained to me why this was the "perfect" property for us. I listened, smiled, agreed that it was nice, etc, even did some research on it, but basically gave no opinion because I didn't want to have an argument. Then he goes on to say that he wants to go out there this last weekend (it was Thursday) without the kids and check it out. I remind him that we already have an event on Saturday and that even if we really really liked it, we aren't in a position to purchase something that large right now. He disagrees and states that we could have it paid off in two years (I handle the finances and have since we were married. He does not want to do them or be involved. So he really has no idea what's possible.) I explain to him how that is not the case, nor would it be prudent to do so since we don't know if we will actually be moving there in 3 years as we hope. He then says that I don't trust him, twists my words, calls me a downer, generalizes how I never listen to him, says I'm not flexible enough, and then goes in the other room to play Rocksmith. Later, he gets mad at me because I wasn't listening to his playing and don't recognize that he is "getting better at guitar". I didn't even get to explain to him that the 4.5 acres behind the cabin are only accessible by rock climbing!
We don't drink much. But we enjoy a little here and there. After an incident that threatened our marriage several years ago, we decided together on some rules - one of which is that he would not drink during his down time while on his work trips. Before you go all accusatory on me and call me controlling, remember we made this decision together, because ground rules needed to be set and he was just as much for it as I was. He seems to have forgotten about the agreement altogether because he does drink then, and tells me about it. I've reminded him of our rule and asked him to keep his promise, no change. Also, what used to be a beer at home once a week for him has become 1-3 a night. I don't drink beer. It's just him. Is his family really so awful to be around that he has to have a beer in his hand in order to be home? Or is this just normal and because of my beer-less childhood, I find this excessive?
I recently received a huge promotion at work which put me in the same earning bracket as him, and actually I'll make more if I bonus. I knew it would become a problem and we talked openly about the fact that I did not want to be the breadwinner. Even still, we discussed it at length, because it comes with a time commitment and delays our plans to move to that area (see example above). We decided together that it was the right thing to do for our family. Shortly after accepting the promotion, he became obsessed with making more money than me (this is not the first time I've made more than him). He turned it competitive. A perspective which at first I found likeable. But instead of keeping it light, he stresses over picking up more work though he does not need to. We decided together that he would work less during the summer so he could be home with the kids more, but he just keeps picking up more work. When I ask him to work less and be home more for the summer, he gets angry with me and says I'm impossible to deal with. His schedule changes frequently, daily in fact (um honey, I'm the one who has to deal with your ever-changing schedule). He could even be scheduled to be out for 3 days and wind up at home that night instead (we consider that a bonus). But when I ask him what his schedule is for the next few days, he says "I don't know what you want from me. I have to work! You want to know my schedule, go look for yourself!" Why can't he just answer my simple question? There are no hidden questions or an agenda beneath it. I just want to know when he'll be home and when he'll be at work. I try to work my somewhat flexible schedule around his so that we can all be home together.
He plays a sport competitively and I have supported and encouraged this hobby for many years. In fact, years ago I supported his desire to go professional with it which meant that we rarely ever saw him. Due to injury, those aspirations were put on hold. Now, he plays about twice a week, which is perfect. It's not a spectator sport, and certainly wasn't when the kids were little. He gets angry with the kids and I when we don't want to go watch him play. 1 - the kids have to be whisper quiet - impossible. 2 - it's 110+ degrees outside. We'll last like 10 minutes. I don't know how HE does it. 3 - sometimes he will invite one of the kids to go play with him. They've gone several times. But they get burnt out in the first little bit. He's h*** o* them and wants them to be good at it. So they usually come home sad because they did not have a good time. He then gets angry with them and just drags them around till the end, or leaves early. Oh, and if he doesn't take 1-2-3 place, he'll be grumpy for the next day or so. Though financially impactful, I still support it because he loves it and it is his release. But two weekends ago when I had an extended family memorial service to attend and asked him to come with me, he chose the sport over me. And the fact that the kids don't want to follow in his footsteps or that I don't have an interest in playing it myself is like the ultimate betrayal. We get an earful weekly about how we don't support him and that his kids don't have any motivation.
His parents recently divorced and his mother re-married 6 months later. He has had to be their mediator for most things financial and it has taken a toll on him. He had a really hard time at the wedding. I've tried to offer him grace and patience. However, recently, twice in the last two weeks, he started a conversation with me like this, "So when are you going to divorce me? I don't know why you're still with me. You don't need my money. I'm an a**hole." So I try to make light of it and joke back in order to move the conversation elsewhere. But he can't take a joke and takes it personally, so it ends up in an argument. Then uses a joke that I said as ammunition later in a different argument.
He refuses to try a different parenting style with our kids than how he was raised. (I don't think this was really how he was raised.) I am not asking him to become a love and logic spokesman. All I am asking is that he try something else, because his approach of "buck up and be a man", and "because I said so", is not working on these two little intelligent pre-tweeners of ours. Sometimes I see him actually trying something differently and it appears to be working for a few minutes, the kid starts to open up and then the kid says something that threatens his ego and he'll blow up. In the end, he flips the table on us (not literally) and plays the pity card. "Well I must be a horrible father then and I don't know why you all put up with me! Do I do anything right?"
And that my friends is just the tip of the ice berg. Yesterday an incident that occurred - I cannot even type it out - that actually made me question his sanity. He absolutely knows what he did was extreme and way out of line. Our children and I have told him how terrified we were. But here at 9pm the following evening, we are still silent with eachother and he has not apologized to the kids. The kids are resilient and have all but forgotten. But not me. I cannot allow something like that to happen again.
He is a diligent worker. He is extremely capable in many things. He is well liked by his peers, my friends and colleagues. He's inventive. He's HOT. And I do love him.
He's also short tempered, egotistical, his love language is physical touch (mine's not), and he thinks he knows it all.
He apologizes like his dad taught him to. He thinks that all he needs to do is extend his arms and give me a hug and all is right under our roof. I have explained to him many times that I cannot always accept just a hug. That I need a real verbal apology and a commitment that he will try to do better in the future. Why is that so hard? If a man is truly sorry for something he was in the wrong for, why can't he just say it? I try and try to bend to his ways and his needs, but other than being helpful around the house (good works is my love language), he doesn't make any communication adjustments on his end.
Then, after all of the above, he has the nerve to ask, "Why aren't we having sex?"
Seriously? Wit's end.
Thank you everyone, for your responses. I know this was a long 'question' and for getting through it you all deserve gold stars!
I counted up the number of "moms who found this helpful" and there were 70 who marked a response as so. 70! Wow. I am glad I posted.
I have obtained the contact information for a counselor that a friend of mine has had good success with, as my last choice of a counselor proved to be un-fruitful. I plan to make four appointments and give him plenty of notice so he can arrange his schedule around them. If he chooses not to attend, then I'll have my answer.
Your replies have helped me to realize that he is clearly emotionally abusive, but he's so sly and manipulative that I've never realized till now that it truly is abuse.
We are still silent. He has made zero attempts at conversation or amends and this morning when I gave the kids hugs and kisses goodbye, but not him, he gave me that look that said, "Hey, I've been gone for two days, you should be over it by now Are you really going to drag this out?"
Yes, yes I am. Not falling for it this time. You screwed up big time buddy.
If there was a term called "clinically angry", it'd be him. I wish I knew why, but he does not share his insecurities, even though I ask him to so that I can be supportive of his emotional needs. He just compensates by exercising control over the people he should be loving instead of controlling.
You never think you'll be in this position. Your parents don't train you for it, school doesn't either. It really sucks.
Wish me luck!
Re: Julie G.
You respondedi with: "You can't change his behavior, but you can change yours. And if you change yours in the right directions, his will follow."
You sound just like Dr. Laura. It's not him, he's just a man and you can't change the natural man. They are who they are. All you can do is be different for them. - Enough! I've been doing that for 12 years, trying every possible way to figure out what makes him happy. He is still just as mad and angry, and escalating. There comes a point where you realize that it's not completely you. You realize that your reactions are a chain reaction that started with his emotional outburst which he blames on someone or something else, usually you. He does not take responsibility for his own thoughts and actions. Julie, I get the feeling you are in a similar pattern with your husband. I hope you too can find some answers and find happiness in your relationship, rather than settling for someone who treats you poorly.
Oh, this is not good. Continue to see a therapist. You are the one who needs help and clarity since it doesn't sound like he has any reason to C.. So sorry.
He sounds rather spoiled and uses whatever way he can to get his way. First this, then that...You have a lot of good answers, the most viable being counseling. You don't sound married you sound like competitors.
And I am way nosey what this mysterious sport is. If he is dragging children around in very bad heat these days, that's not too popular.
Since he is acting like a spoiled child, you need to start using consequences if you are going be like a parent to him. He doesn't sound like a partner and says things to pacify you. Like the 'no drinking' unless together, then he violates that rule. He truly is disrespectful and it's time you learn what you can do to either get it or move on. Good luck, I know how hard this is.
I couldn't finish this. It sounds like you are married to a big seven year old.
Just leave already. How much more of this do you really want to live with?
ETA: Everyone has suggested counseling: make the time for it, make it happen. You wrote: ". Yesterday an incident that occurred - I cannot even type it out - that actually made me question his sanity. He absolutely knows what he did was extreme and way out of line." Either you leverage this as "we HAVE to see a counselor now" or you decide to start looking into your legal options. I am the last person to say "just dump someone" but when you are fearing for your own safety, it's time to take steps. I don't know if he has borderline personality disorder, but he doesn't sound emotionally stable at all. People with BPD don't usually do well in counseling, think everyone is out to get them and have highly unrealistic expectations of others.
Your description makes him sound like a man-child. Threatened by your success, taking video games and sports way too seriously, grand aspirations that aren 't really in the realm of reality.
But people say you can't change other people. You can just model your actions to be like the relationship you want, and it seems like you are already doing that.
If this is truly who he is and you're staying, then you're only option is to accept him and his 12-year-old psyche.
Or...
you could not accept no for an answer and insist on counseling. I mean, your post was about how you've done everything you can except put your foot down and stop being a doormat. You sound like you're dancing around on eggshells in every conversation. How completely exhausting. Would he really rather lose you than seek help with you? If so, call that bluff and see if he changes his mind.
Molly O. put it well: A grave case of "man-child." The term sounds funny but it's not. It's a recipe for disaster when one adult is married to one immature "it's all about me" child.
You also refer to your decision to make this move (19 hours away? Was that a typo? 200 K? And he doesn't handle the money?). It's not your decision, it's his fantasy.
You refer to his constant insistence on your giving him "respect," which seems to mean, in his eyes, approving whatever he wants to do, and gushing over his gaming, and adopting HIS sport as YOUR hobby too.
You refer to how he travels and has an unpredictable work schedule - at least partly by his own choice! -- and then how you are expected to accommodate his "hobbies" like his sport when he IS at home.
Do you see that he's extremely immature?
I see why you can't accept a hug that he thinks makes it all fine--he will repeat the same behaviors so the hug is meaningless. But don't wait for a verbal apology either. You need him to get to where he does not have to apologize, or hug, at all, because he stops the immature behaviors. That's on him. And I don't see it happening unless he has that moment when he realizes that he's losing everything if he doesn't change. But would he know that moment if he saw it?
We can't help you. You can't "help" him. This is truly a post that screams for intensive therapy -- couples therapy would be best, but from what you describe, it sounds like he needs some serious therapy himself but would never recognize that he needs it. If you can't get him to go to couples therapy, you need to get a therapist for yourself, to help you (a) cope with him day to day, and (b) decide where this marriage is going if he continues to be the center of the universe. Therapy is not just about learning to deal with the situation -- it's also about making some choices about whether to stay in the situation.
Please don't say "I can't manage therapy with the kids' schedules and his resistance" etc. It really will help to see an objective third party. You are not in a marriage right now; you are babysitting a very large kid, and getting nothing out of it. And your children ARE going to learn his ways; what you allow to continue is what they will grow up thinking is normal interaction between a husband and wife. I've seen that happen -- what the parents model, even with the best of intentions on one side at least, is what the kids remember.
It does not matter how hot he is or how much you love him if he wears down your soul and expects you to mold to his pipedreams and hobbies and need for "respect" for years and years to come.
well, if he's not willing to go to counseling with you, where does that leave you? are you willing to keep doing all the heavy lifting yourself?
i myself do not think i could keep my kids around a man who treated them poorly, and whom they saw treating me poorly.
please don't read dr laura. she's not a doctor. she's a hack.
ETA- however resilient your kids are, i assure you they have not forgotten. they're simply instinctively trying to protect themselves, and you, by lying low. don't fool yourself for a second by thinking it's 'okay' because your kids aren't acting out in response to the family pressure. this is having a measurable, significant impact on how they're learning to view relationships.
khairete
S.
Your husband reminds me very much of my narcissistic ex. Good luck.
ETA:
You say " The fact that I joined here and am actually posting something personal and looking for advice from total strangers says a lot."
You detail his drinking, bad parenting, family issues, financial irresponsibility, sport obsession and general childish behavior.
Then you DON'T divulge details about (even anonymously to complete strangers from whom you seek advice & opinion) "an incident that occurred - I cannot even type it out - that actually made me question his sanity. "
This leads me to believe you have your answer, and yet you're enabling him and displaying terribly codependent behavior by "protecting him" to total strangers that YOU sought out to weigh in on your marriage! That speaks volumes right there.
Original:
Truthfully, it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself that you chose a good man. This post reads like a balance sheet of pros and cons.
Everyone has pros and everyone has cons.
Fact is, when the cons outweigh the pros, there's a problem.
If a mate isn't (overall, big picture) making your life better, happier, easier, more enjoyable--might not be the right mate!
I'm sorry, but it doesn't sound like someone I could bud a life with.
All the best to you & your kids.
He is very emotionally fragile, and I'm pretty sure you are someone with a fairly calm, logical, rational demeanor, which comes off as cold and distant to someone of his personality. He is more emotionally demonstrative and you are somewhat emotionally repressed, in outward manner, anyway.
Your husband has a lot of issues, and I'm pretty sure they stem from the way he was raised: his need to be "trusted" all the time says a lot.
However, it sounds like one of your core problems is how you interact with each other on a subtle, body language level, that doesn't mirror or acknowledge the needs of the other person.
Unless people are irreparably emotionally damaged, most marital problems come down to communication. I don't see any solution for the two of you other than to see a counselor, a good one, who will help you learn to communicate properly with each other, in a way that meets each person's emotional needs (especially his). You also need a third party to tell him that his treatment of the kids is harmful.
Seeing a couples counselor sounds like a sort of tired, cliche answer, but I don't see any other solution in your case. You need a third party to keep him present and in line while both of you learn the best way to express your needs to each other.
Good luck.
And p.s. - Unless you believe he has a problem with alcohol, you need to remove the ban on alcohol when he's not with you. That's way more oversight than any individual should endure, and puts you in the role of his mother, or his overlord.
You and your husband don't really communicate with each other. He says stuff, you say stuff but neither really feels like the other one is listening and addressing concerns. It's most likely a pattern that was set back when you were in high school and you never really moved into an adult communication pattern. Also I'm going to guess that the time he spends away from the family makes it hard for him to come home and feel like he's an important part of the family. Maybe some marriage counseling would be valuable or just sitting down and writing out a 5 yr plan including major purchases and hopes and dreams.
I, too, see this as a communications issue made seriously more difficult by your shared painful history. Both of you are hurting. Good that you're gaining insight into yourself. Keep doing that. I suggest the next step is compassion for yourself, for him and for yourselves as a couple.
I suggest that once your husband feels that compassion he may be more willing to have marriage counseling. I do not see him, from your description, as fatally flawed. I see both of you struggling in similar ways.
He feels and says that you don't trust him. Your actions say you don't trust him. Sounds like you're trying to act as if you do. You have reason to not trust but you haven't dealt with that issue. You're stuck there. It's reasonable for your husband to feel your lack of trust. His anger that you said nothing and then were angry when he wanted to take the next step of looking at the site is to be expected. I liken this to covering up a sore with a band aide and being surprised/angry when the sore is still there the next day when you take off the band aid.
I urge you to try out a way of talking called non-violent communication. There is a very good book with that title and information on the Internet. It's a way of talking so that communication meets the needs of both people.
I suggest the two of you are in a stand off. Both of you are seriously hurting. I suggest that with counseling to help both of you to break down the barriers of anger you can have a better marriage.
My sense is that your husband is quite narcissistic. He likely has narcissistic personality disorder. The behavior he engages in with you is not ok. You are not crazy- you are in a crazy making situation. He is adept at "gaslighting". I encourage you to read about narcissism and look up the term "gaslighting". Sadly, it is very unlikely that he will ever change.
It's all summed up with " He seems to have forgotten about the agreement altogether because he does drink then, and tells me about it... Also, what used to be a beer at home once a week for him has become 1-3 a night."
Your hubby has become an alcoholic. Try Al-Anon. He won't accept that he's an alcoholic because he still functions. It's VERY hard for a functioning addict/alcoholic to admit they have a problem. Things will get much worse before they get better, if they ever do.
Go to counseling and Al-Anon - you have some very hard decisions to make very soon.
I think Veruca is right here. You both need counseling to break some really disrespectful habits. If my hubby came to me chatting on and on about a dream property he found, I would at least go see it. I can't see how just saying nothing is respectful. Respect involves listening.
In all honesty, I see lots of disrespect from your end. To demand an apology? To not accept a peace offering hug? I've been married 13 years. I doubt my hubby has said sorry more than 3 times. He offers up hugs, or I go to him for a hug. At the end of the day, all is right in the world with a hug. You have to let things go.
It seems to me like you need to let go and accept your issues with your man. We all have issues. You can either hope to change them (which is a pipedream) or you can accept them as necessary parts of the person you love. I learned years ago to just accept hubby as he is. He is a great guy, and I will admit to having periods where I only see the negative, but that's when I remind myself to accept and open my eyes. I dish out just as much as he does. It takes two to dance. And from what you wrote above, you both (like most couples), have your own issues.
So, my suggestion is to get yourself in therapy. You can't change his behavior, but you can change yours. And if you change yours in the right directions, his will follow.
ETA: wow. Actually, my hubby and I have an amazing marriage. I don't like dr laura, and I wasn't really thinking of that. I was thinking of you letting go of your anger, of you finding peace, and of you changing your tone with him. Re-read marda's response. I have read the non-violent communication book, and you and your hubby are in a power struggle.
Just wanted to wish you luck. I haven't been on in a few days (browser issues) and you got some great responses already. I just wanted to let you know that I understand your position. My husband is pretty nuts too. I'm realizing over the years that it's not just personality differences, he really has some serious mental health issues that truly skew how he sees the world and how he behaves. I, too, wonder how I got here. It's a weird world to live in.
We're on our 6th counselor in 11 years and he's intimating that he's ready to quit this one too. She's good though, and called him on it: "I sense that you're getting uncomfortable. Are you going to fire me too? How many more people do you think you'll hire to help your marriage who will come to the same conclusion that you are responsible for much of what doesn't work? Will you just keep going until you find someone who tells you you're right and everyone else needs to change?" I know she's getting to him because he's an even bigger a-hole the day or two following a session LOL.
Sigh. Anyway...I hope you find some answers and that he changes before he ends up losing you and your kids. Why can't they just put their Neanderthal egos aside and behave like normal adults?
Hi C.,
Wow, you are going through a lot with your husband. I feel for you. I know you say you love your husband, but how can you live with a man who treats you so poorly? You deserve respect just as much as he does. I'm no expert, but please also think about the example your setting for your kids. Would you want them to grow up and marry people like your husband and allow someone to treat them like he is you? They might with the example you and your husband are setting for them. What would you tell your kids to do if they were in your situation? You are fortunate to have a great paying job, so you can take care of yourself and your kids. I really do wish you the very best!
Get some marriage counseling.
Go by your self if he won't go.
When I started reading this and forming my thoughts it was "I need to make a dental appointment and need to know what day is best for you so you can watch the kids". Putting the why you need the information first so he might not feel so..intimidated? violated? who knows what's going on in that mind...
After finishing your post I do think there is definitely something else at play here. He sounds like he has a mental disorder, perhaps like Schizoid Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder.
Has he ever had any sort of mental health eval? When he was a kid?
As for the drinking when you're not there to be his keeper? not going to happen, never was going to happen. Accept that or move on, he's a person who likes to drink and is going to drink when he wants to.
From this point on when he brings up the subject of your leaving or the family hating him be blunt and honest, short and to the point.
Yes, we do put up with a lot from you.
A hug won't fix the tear in my heart that you just put there.
I don't know why we put up with you either except we love you and keep hoping for you to understand how hurtful you can be.
Here's what's going to happen honey, we love you and want to stay a family but you make it very hard. We want you to join us in counseling because we want to stay a family. Will you join us or move out?
***************************
Draw a line and let him know it's time. Your kids are learning this is how a grown up treats their family and spouse. It's time to teach kiddos that there are limits to what anyone should put up with.
One of my best and dearest friends said her happiest marriage was to a long distance truck driver. When he was gone she ruled the roost and did it quite well. When he was home they spent a lot of time in the bedroom and the kids go to go to grandma's for a day or so. It was like a honeymoon every few weeks.
The reason they broke up was because he quit being a truck driver and was home all the time...he was a horrid person to be around daily.
BTW, if your kids are pre-teens then they can have some responsibility. If one of them is 10 or older they can start doing home alone training. Leaving them for a few minutes to go to the neighbors house for coffee, going outside to mow, walking around the block, etc....starting off very small where they are inside the home alone, with the sounds, the space, and the quiet...that can be overwhelming to a kid at first. Taking baby steps.
But the point is, hubby doesn't need to babysit them if they're older. A teen, a neighbor, a friend they can go play with for an hour or two, that can alleviate the need for hubby to be anywhere at any given time when he's home. Just leave him out of it and plan what you need to do.
Get the DVD "Laugh your way to a better marriage" and watch it together. Good luck.
